Dec 4, 2010
According to the Qu’ran Allah repeated turns unbelievers into apes or swine, and threatens to do the same to others. Do you know of anyone who has recently been transmogrified into some other animal due to their disrespect for Allah or Islam?
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I was really amazed when I watched this video: Is it possible that a person could lie so blantly?
THERE IS NO THREAT IN QURAN THAT PEOPLE WILL BE TURNED INTO PIGS AND APES IF THEY DISOBEY ALLAH!
In surah 4 and 5, the verses are saying that there was some people from the children of Israel that were turned into pigs and apes, and in surah 2 and 7, that story is told in more details.
I’ve seen many atheists until now, and ALL OF THEM were totally arrogant (And they rejected those Signs in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls were convinced 24:17): Do you think that if what you’re saying is true, no muslim will notice this childish issue through all the muslim History?!!!
And guess what, MILLIONS of muslims (actually 1 million just in Lybia, may Allah grant them victory) know the Quran by heart. So if you ever consider asking REAL tough questions about islam not those chlidish lies, do yourself a favour: skip the quran since you’re just fooling yourself.
And that lame talk of yours at the begining saying that you were threatned by Muslims if you ever question their religion is probably another lie since muslims themselves do that all the time (with a big difference thoug: they do it in a humble and polite way!) and debates in islam are as old as islam itself.
Say, “This is my way; I invite to Allah with insight, I and those who follow me. And exalted is Allah ; and I am not of those who associate others with Him.” 12:108 (note that it says with “insight”, ie, with knowledge not by repeating what I am not convinced intellectually of).
Are those who know and those who do not know alike? 39:9
The prophet (pbuh) said: seeking knowledge is an obligation for every Muslim.
So champ, next time be fair and don’t underestimate your audience. Lying just shows that you’re freaking out for some reason: The rapid growth of Islam in YOUR society? You’re convinced by islam and you’re afraid to admit it?
It is interesting to compare the reaction of Christians with the reaction of Muslims. If I quote or reference a Bible verse and a Christian disagrees with my explanation, they tell me that I am “mistaken” and then attempt to argue their position. Muslims seem to immediately assume I am intentionally lying. It really is an interesting difference, one I wouldn’t have predicted.
In this case, you claim I am lied when I said the Qu’ran threatens to turn people into apes. Let’s look at the specific verses.
First, Surah 7:166
This is definitely just describing an event, showing that God had the power to change people into apes at one time, but there is no reason to believe he still possesses the ability to do it now. Let’s look at another verse.
Surah 2:65-66
This clearly says God turned Sabbath-breakers into apes. No question about it. The statement where God says “We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations” implies that he may do it again to others, but it doesn’t threaten outright. It’s possible God no longer possessed the ability to change humans to apes, but wanted to make people think he did so said those apes would serve as an example to future generations of something that couldn’t realistically happen to them… lets move on.
Surah 4:47
There we have it. A direct threat from God saying to beleive before he does the same thing to you as he did to the Sabbath-breakers of old (turn them into apes).
I suppose it could be an empty threat, since God hasn’t ever carried it out. But it’s clear that a threat was made.
So… champ… Next time read the Qu’ran before accusing someone of lying about it.
Islam has enough problems, I have no reason to make up imaginary ones.
I accused you of lying since the other possibility is stupidity and I thought you had a minimum of intelligence to not fall in this category. Honestly, now I’m doubting about that…
Well, thanks for the advice but I always check before answering and I did better than that: I compared the english translations with the arabic text (I read/speak arabic) since there was a chance that you were mislead by the translations.
Back to the point: God sure can turn anyone to an ape or whatever you want and whenever HE wants otherwise He will not be ALMIGHTY but as you still fail to prove it, there is no threat that EVERYONE who does or does not do this or that will be turned into an ape.
The best thing you got is 4:47 that is talking about cursing as the Sabbath breaker was cursed which is a different punishement than turning them into apes (Sabbath-breaker have been turned into apes and swines AND have been cursed AND have been killed 3 days after that).
The next best thing is 2:66 talking about an example: if you knew the whole story and it’s background you would understand that the example lies in many different things (the fact that god is almighty, that people who don’t speak out when something wrong happen around them COULD be punished EARTHLY in the same way, that there is no use for jews to hide the dark side of their history since God may reveal it in any time, etc.). Anyways, again no threat saying that EVERY trangressor will be turned into an animal.
See man, still want to ask “tough” questions about islam? Fair enough, just be sure to ask about what MUSLIMS believe and understand from their sources, not what YOU understand from them. That’s basic logic in debates.
P.S.: If you want to get a better idea on that Sabbath-breaker story, try to get what is EXACTLY their fault and see the part talking about Jews in “Religulous” (funny and excellent movie by the way). Personally, I was stunned to see how nothing had changed since so many centuries.
Interesting. First you say I must be stupid — then you say I could have been “mislead by the translations.” I guess it’s unfortunate that I don’t speak Arabic and God doesn’t speak English. You’d think an all-mighty God would be multi-lingual, so he could adequately relay his message without relying on fallible human translators. But now we’re getting off topic.
I never said the Qu’ran states that God will turn EVERY transgressor into an ape or a pig, just that it’s a threat which appears repeatedly in the Qu’ran.
I asked for examples, even sporatic examples, of God actually making good on this threat — or reasons why God would not (or could not) turn people into apes and pigs anymore.
So far you have done neither. You’ve simply shown your own ignorance about the threats contained within the Qu’ran, and argued against something I never said.
So let’s try this again. We both admit that the Qu’ran says God has turned people into apes and pigs, and that it contains warnings saying God may do the same thing again later. So, why doesn’t this EVER happen nowadays?
Hum… Yeah, you weren’t lying after all…
First of all, I have good manners (yes, sir!) and I didn’t call you stupid in my last message nor I said that you were actually mislead by the translation (I was talking about a chance of being mislead. I should have added that the translations seem OK for me).
Next thing, you keep saying here and in the video that it’s a threat that REPEATEDLY appears in the Quran. 4 lines (at most!) in a 600 pages book, is it that much for you? Or just wanting to make your claim believable?
Now, the core of the issue: you’re asking if it EVER happens nowadays that God turns people to some animal.
What you should know is that Muslims understand the Quran as a whole (meaning, they should always have the bigger picture of each issue) and on the light of the AUTHENTIC hadith as Allah says to his prophet (pbuh):
“We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought. 16:44″
and finally on the light of what the scholars of the first generations of Islam have said.
On our particular point, we know that the scholars have disputed the real meaning of turning people into animals: was it litteral or not? Was it total or partial? How is this a punishement since animals don’t seem to suffer from their own condition?
The majority agreed that in the story of the sabbath breaker, people were turned into animals for real and they have probably kept their human perception so they feel their new condition and suffer morally for this. The scholars have noted eventhough that the word for “turning into an animal” (which is “Maskh”) may aswell mean partial metamorhphosis or even a moral one, which needs to be kept in mind when thinking about this threat.
Last thing worth noting before concluding is that in the authentic hadith, the Prophet (pbuh) mentions this particular threat ONLY when talking about the end of time prophecies along with things that already happened like the multiplication of tall buildings, the multiplication of policemen, the fall of Constantinople to the muslims, fornication in public places, friendship becoming more important than kinship, etc. and others that didn’t happen YET like the sun rising from the west, the Christians being the largest part of the world population, the coming of the Antichrist and that of the Christ, etc.
MY conclusion after doing some research is that this threat must be understood in its largest sense. In the moral sense, I’m sure you already know some humanoid pigs and apes around you (if not check on the internet for some music videos for example
). In the physical sense, “Technically, transplant patients who’ve received heart valves from a pig are chimeras.(ie, human pig hybrids)”
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/genetic/human-pig-hybrid.htm
To admire real complete metamorphosis, it seems that you have to wait until some time before the end of times as it is suggested by the hadith (even if it may already happened and those lame journalists didn’t believe testimonies who reported it!).
Any how, are you sure that your neighbour is still human?
P.S. : I skipped the theological references to make it short, if you want them I’ll be glad to give you some links… in arabic.
This exchange show how Moslems think. First assume, then shoot. ‘Islam is perfect and we know it all. Therefore, critics are demon-possessed, mentally ill or stupid.’
There are in fact so many serious problems in the Koranic text that mullahs have over the years come up with far-fetched explanations to justify the text. In the end, they often say that ‘only Allah knows’ what it means.
The Koran and hadiths contain dozens of legends and outright fairy tales, such as this one of transformation. People turn into animals, animals speak, clouds speak, rocks tell Moslems to commit murder. Moslems uncritically swallow it all. They evidently don’t see they are being conned. Once you accept lunacy, it’s easy to accept more…and more…and more. I am sure the original Moslems didn’t believe all of Mohammed’s fairy tales, but they were lured into the cult by the promise of quick riches through plunder. The Islamic religion was not fabricated until 150 to 300 years after the Mohammed was poisoned by his first two successors, Abu Bakr and Omar. Probably, Mohammed had become so insane at this point, that they had no other option. There is practically no mention of Mohammed for 80 years after his death. He was resurrected by his family the Abassids when they needed him to justify their dynasty.
Islam as we know it was created by the Abassids. They just collected all the legends and fairy tales and quickly through them together without editing or much scrutiny. Islam was a political conspiracy from the start.
A lot of projections (personal and western ones) here (may Allah heal you) and as you had nothing useful to add on the subject, you felt compelled to share your far fetched conspirationnal theory about Islam with us?
Even if your comment made my day (thanks for that:), I still have pity for the orientalisto-shiito-evangelical denial theory of yours, and I have just one question for you (which is actually in the Quran): How come no two contradictors of Islam have the same explanation of what was Muhammad(pbuh)?
One bit of advice: If you’re really eager to explain Islam, start by reading the whole Quran and see by yourself if it does fit with your idle words.